19b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 29b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 39b50d902SRodney W. Grimes>From vn Fri Dec 2 18:05:27 1988 49b50d902SRodney W. GrimesSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA 59b50d902SRodney W. GrimesNewsgroups: sci.crypt 69b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 79b50d902SRodney W. Grimes# Illegitimi noncarborundum 89b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 99b50d902SRodney W. GrimesPatents are a tar pit. 109b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 119b50d902SRodney W. GrimesA good case can be made that most are just a license to sue, and nothing 129b50d902SRodney W. Grimesis illegal until a patent is upheld in court. 139b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 149b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFor example, if you receive netnews by means other than 'nntp', 159b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthese very words are being modulated by 'compress', 169b50d902SRodney W. Grimesa variation on the patented Lempel-Ziv-Welch algorithm. 179b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 189b50d902SRodney W. GrimesOriginal Ziv-Lempel is patent number 4,464,650, and the more powerful 199b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLZW method is #4,558,302. Yet despite any similarities between 'compress' 209b50d902SRodney W. Grimesand LZW (the public-domain 'compress' code was designed and given to the 219b50d902SRodney W. Grimesworld before the ink on the Welch patent was dry), no attorneys from Sperry 229b50d902SRodney W. Grimes(the assignee) have asked you to unplug your Usenet connection. 239b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 249b50d902SRodney W. GrimesWhy? I can't speak for them, but it is possible the claims are too broad, 259b50d902SRodney W. Grimesor, just as bad, not broad enough. ('compress' does things not mentioned 269b50d902SRodney W. Grimesin the Welch patent.) Maybe they realize that they can commercialize 279b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLZW better by selling hardware implementations rather than by licensing 289b50d902SRodney W. Grimessoftware. Again, the LZW software delineated in the patent is *not* 299b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe same as that of 'compress'. 309b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 319b50d902SRodney W. GrimesAt any rate, court-tested software patents are a different animal; 329b50d902SRodney W. Grimescorporate patents in a portfolio are usually traded like baseball cards 339b50d902SRodney W. Grimesto shut out small fry rather than actually be defended before 349b50d902SRodney W. Grimesnon-technical juries. Perhaps RSA will undergo this test successfully, 359b50d902SRodney W. Grimesalthough the grant to "exclude others from making, using, or selling" 369b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe invention would then only apply to the U.S. (witness the 379b50d902SRodney W. GrimesGenentech patent of the TPA molecule in the U.S. but struck down 389b50d902SRodney W. Grimesin Great Britain as too broad.) 399b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 409b50d902SRodney W. GrimesThe concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 419b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthat one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 429b50d902SRodney W. GrimesApparently this all changed in Diamond v. Diehr (1981) when the U. S. Supreme 439b50d902SRodney W. GrimesCourt reversed itself. 449b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 459b50d902SRodney W. GrimesScholars should consult the excellent article in the Washington and Lee 469b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLaw Review (fall 1984, vol. 41, no. 4) by Anthony and Colwell for a 479b50d902SRodney W. Grimescomprehensive survey of an area which will remain murky for some time. 489b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 499b50d902SRodney W. GrimesUntil the dust clears, how you approach ideas which are patented depends 509b50d902SRodney W. Grimeson how paranoid you are of a legal onslaught. Arbitrary? Yes. But 519b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe patent bar the the CCPA (Court of Customs and Patent Appeals) 529b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthanks you for any uncertainty as they, at least, stand to gain 539b50d902SRodney W. Grimesfrom any trouble. 549b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 559b50d902SRodney W. Grimes=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 569b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 579b50d902SRodney W. GrimesSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA (actually 'compress' patents) 589b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 599b50d902SRodney W. Grimes In article <2042@eos.UUCP> you write: 609b50d902SRodney W. Grimes >The concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 619b50d902SRodney W. Grimes >that one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 629b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 639b50d902SRodney W. GrimesA rule of thumb that has never been completely valid, as any chemical 649b50d902SRodney W. Grimesengineer can tell you. (Chemical processes were among the earliest patents, 659b50d902SRodney W. Grimesas I recall.) 669b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 679b50d902SRodney W. Grimes ah yes -- i date myself when relaying out-of-date advice from elderly 689b50d902SRodney W. Grimes attorneys who don't even specialize in patents. one other interesting 699b50d902SRodney W. Grimes class of patents include the output of optical lens design programs, 709b50d902SRodney W. Grimes which yield formulae which can then fairly directly can be molded 719b50d902SRodney W. Grimes into glass. although there are restrictions on patenting equations, 729b50d902SRodney W. Grimes the "embedded systems" seem to fly past the legal gauntlets. 739b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 749b50d902SRodney W. Grimes anyway, i'm still learning about intellectual property law after 759b50d902SRodney W. Grimes several conversations from a unisys (nee sperry) lawyer re 'compress'. 769b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 779b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it's more complicated than this, but they're letting (oral 789b50d902SRodney W. Grimes communication only) software versions of 'compress' slide 799b50d902SRodney W. Grimes as far as licensing fees go. this includes 'arc', 'stuffit', 809b50d902SRodney W. Grimes and other commercial wrappers for 'compress'. yet they are 819b50d902SRodney W. Grimes signing up licensees for hardware chips. hewlett-packard 829b50d902SRodney W. Grimes supposedly has an active vlsi project, and unisys has 839b50d902SRodney W. Grimes board-level lzw-based tape controllers. (to build lzw into 849b50d902SRodney W. Grimes a disk controller would be strange, as you'd have to build 859b50d902SRodney W. Grimes in a filesystem too!) 869b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 879b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it's byzantine 889b50d902SRodney W. Grimes that unisys is in a tiff with hp regarding the patents, 899b50d902SRodney W. Grimes after discovering some sort of "compress" button on some 909b50d902SRodney W. Grimes hp terminal product. why? well, professor abraham lempel jumped 919b50d902SRodney W. Grimes from being department chairman of computer science at technion in 929b50d902SRodney W. Grimes israel to sperry (where he got the first patent), but then to work 939b50d902SRodney W. Grimes at hewlett-packard on sabbatical. the second welch patent 949b50d902SRodney W. Grimes is only weakly derivative of the first, so they want chip 959b50d902SRodney W. Grimes licenses and hp relented. however, everyone agrees something 969b50d902SRodney W. Grimes like the current unix implementation is the way to go with 979b50d902SRodney W. Grimes software, so hp (and ucb) long ago asked spencer thomas and i to sign 989b50d902SRodney W. Grimes off on copyright permission (although they didn't need to, it being pd). 999b50d902SRodney W. Grimes lempel, hp, and unisys grumbles they can't make money off the 1009b50d902SRodney W. Grimes software since a good free implementation (not the best -- 1019b50d902SRodney W. Grimes i have more ideas!) escaped via usenet. (lempel's own pascal 1029b50d902SRodney W. Grimes code was apparently horribly slow.) 1039b50d902SRodney W. Grimes i don't follow the ibm 'arc' legal bickering; my impression 1049b50d902SRodney W. Grimes is that the pc folks are making money off the archiver/wrapper 1059b50d902SRodney W. Grimes look/feel of the thing [if ms-dos can be said to have a look and feel]. 1069b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1079b50d902SRodney W. Grimes now where is telebit with the compress firmware? in a limbo 1089b50d902SRodney W. Grimes netherworld, probably, with sperry still welcoming outfits 1099b50d902SRodney W. Grimes to sign patent licenses, a common tactic to bring other small fry 1109b50d902SRodney W. Grimes into the fold. the guy who crammed 12-bit compess into the modem 1119b50d902SRodney W. Grimes there left. also what is transpiring with 'compress' and sys 5 rel 4? 1129b50d902SRodney W. Grimes beats me, but if sperry got a hold of them on these issues, 1139b50d902SRodney W. Grimes at&t would likely re-implement another algorithm if they 1149b50d902SRodney W. Grimes thought 'compress' infringes. needful to say, i don't think 1159b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it does after the abovementioned legal conversation. 1169b50d902SRodney W. Grimes my own beliefs on whether algorithms should be patentable at all 1179b50d902SRodney W. Grimes change with the weather. if the courts finally nail down 1189b50d902SRodney W. Grimes patent protection for algorithms, academic publication in 1199b50d902SRodney W. Grimes textbooks will be somewhat at odds with the engineering world, 1209b50d902SRodney W. Grimes where the textbook codes will simply be a big tease to get 1219b50d902SRodney W. Grimes money into the patent holder coffers... 1229b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1239b50d902SRodney W. Grimes oh, if you implement lzw from the patent, you won't get 1249b50d902SRodney W. Grimes good rates because it doesn't mention adaptive table reset, 1259b50d902SRodney W. Grimes lack thereof being *the* serious deficiency of thomas' first version. 1269b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1279b50d902SRodney W. Grimes now i know that patent law generally protects against independent 1289b50d902SRodney W. Grimes re-invention (like the 'xor' hash function pleasantly mentioned 1299b50d902SRodney W. Grimes in the patent [but not the paper]). 1309b50d902SRodney W. Grimes but the upshot is that if anyone ever wanted to sue us, 1319b50d902SRodney W. Grimes we're partially covered with 1329b50d902SRodney W. Grimes independently-developed twists, plus the fact that some of us work 1339b50d902SRodney W. Grimes in a bureacratic morass (as contractor to a public agency in my case). 1349b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1359b50d902SRodney W. Grimes quite a mess, huh? i've wanted to tell someone this stuff 1369b50d902SRodney W. Grimes for a long time, for posterity if nothing else. 1379b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1389b50d902SRodney W. Grimesjames 1399b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 140