16dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier 26dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier $FreeBSD$ 36dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier 49b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 59b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 69b50d902SRodney W. Grimes>From vn Fri Dec 2 18:05:27 1988 79b50d902SRodney W. GrimesSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA 89b50d902SRodney W. GrimesNewsgroups: sci.crypt 99b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 109b50d902SRodney W. Grimes# Illegitimi noncarborundum 119b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 129b50d902SRodney W. GrimesPatents are a tar pit. 139b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 149b50d902SRodney W. GrimesA good case can be made that most are just a license to sue, and nothing 159b50d902SRodney W. Grimesis illegal until a patent is upheld in court. 169b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 179b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFor example, if you receive netnews by means other than 'nntp', 189b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthese very words are being modulated by 'compress', 199b50d902SRodney W. Grimesa variation on the patented Lempel-Ziv-Welch algorithm. 209b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 219b50d902SRodney W. GrimesOriginal Ziv-Lempel is patent number 4,464,650, and the more powerful 229b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLZW method is #4,558,302. Yet despite any similarities between 'compress' 239b50d902SRodney W. Grimesand LZW (the public-domain 'compress' code was designed and given to the 249b50d902SRodney W. Grimesworld before the ink on the Welch patent was dry), no attorneys from Sperry 259b50d902SRodney W. Grimes(the assignee) have asked you to unplug your Usenet connection. 269b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 279b50d902SRodney W. GrimesWhy? I can't speak for them, but it is possible the claims are too broad, 289b50d902SRodney W. Grimesor, just as bad, not broad enough. ('compress' does things not mentioned 299b50d902SRodney W. Grimesin the Welch patent.) Maybe they realize that they can commercialize 309b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLZW better by selling hardware implementations rather than by licensing 319b50d902SRodney W. Grimessoftware. Again, the LZW software delineated in the patent is *not* 329b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe same as that of 'compress'. 339b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 349b50d902SRodney W. GrimesAt any rate, court-tested software patents are a different animal; 359b50d902SRodney W. Grimescorporate patents in a portfolio are usually traded like baseball cards 369b50d902SRodney W. Grimesto shut out small fry rather than actually be defended before 379b50d902SRodney W. Grimesnon-technical juries. Perhaps RSA will undergo this test successfully, 389b50d902SRodney W. Grimesalthough the grant to "exclude others from making, using, or selling" 399b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe invention would then only apply to the U.S. (witness the 409b50d902SRodney W. GrimesGenentech patent of the TPA molecule in the U.S. but struck down 419b50d902SRodney W. Grimesin Great Britain as too broad.) 429b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 439b50d902SRodney W. GrimesThe concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 449b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthat one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 459b50d902SRodney W. GrimesApparently this all changed in Diamond v. Diehr (1981) when the U. S. Supreme 469b50d902SRodney W. GrimesCourt reversed itself. 479b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 489b50d902SRodney W. GrimesScholars should consult the excellent article in the Washington and Lee 499b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLaw Review (fall 1984, vol. 41, no. 4) by Anthony and Colwell for a 509b50d902SRodney W. Grimescomprehensive survey of an area which will remain murky for some time. 519b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 529b50d902SRodney W. GrimesUntil the dust clears, how you approach ideas which are patented depends 539b50d902SRodney W. Grimeson how paranoid you are of a legal onslaught. Arbitrary? Yes. But 549b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe patent bar the the CCPA (Court of Customs and Patent Appeals) 559b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthanks you for any uncertainty as they, at least, stand to gain 569b50d902SRodney W. Grimesfrom any trouble. 579b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 589b50d902SRodney W. Grimes=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 599b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 609b50d902SRodney W. GrimesSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA (actually 'compress' patents) 619b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 629b50d902SRodney W. Grimes In article <2042@eos.UUCP> you write: 639b50d902SRodney W. Grimes >The concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 649b50d902SRodney W. Grimes >that one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 659b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 669b50d902SRodney W. GrimesA rule of thumb that has never been completely valid, as any chemical 679b50d902SRodney W. Grimesengineer can tell you. (Chemical processes were among the earliest patents, 689b50d902SRodney W. Grimesas I recall.) 699b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 709b50d902SRodney W. Grimes ah yes -- i date myself when relaying out-of-date advice from elderly 719b50d902SRodney W. Grimes attorneys who don't even specialize in patents. one other interesting 729b50d902SRodney W. Grimes class of patents include the output of optical lens design programs, 739b50d902SRodney W. Grimes which yield formulae which can then fairly directly can be molded 749b50d902SRodney W. Grimes into glass. although there are restrictions on patenting equations, 759b50d902SRodney W. Grimes the "embedded systems" seem to fly past the legal gauntlets. 769b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 776dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier anyway, I'm still learning about intellectual property law after 786dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier several conversations from a Unisys (nee sperry) lawyer re 'compress'. 799b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 809b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it's more complicated than this, but they're letting (oral 819b50d902SRodney W. Grimes communication only) software versions of 'compress' slide 829b50d902SRodney W. Grimes as far as licensing fees go. this includes 'arc', 'stuffit', 839b50d902SRodney W. Grimes and other commercial wrappers for 'compress'. yet they are 846dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier signing up licensees for hardware chips. Hewlett-Packard 856dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier supposedly has an active vlsi project, and Unisys has 866dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier board-level LZW-based tape controllers. (to build LZW into 879b50d902SRodney W. Grimes a disk controller would be strange, as you'd have to build 889b50d902SRodney W. Grimes in a filesystem too!) 899b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 909b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it's byzantine 916dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier that Unisys is in a tiff with HP regarding the patents, 929b50d902SRodney W. Grimes after discovering some sort of "compress" button on some 936dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier HP terminal product. why? well, professor Abraham Lempel jumped 949b50d902SRodney W. Grimes from being department chairman of computer science at technion in 956dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier Israel to sperry (where he got the first patent), but then to work 966dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier at Hewlett-Packard on sabbatical. the second Welch patent 979b50d902SRodney W. Grimes is only weakly derivative of the first, so they want chip 986dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier licenses and HP relented. however, everyone agrees something 996dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier like the current Unix implementation is the way to go with 1006dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier software, so HP (and UCB) long ago asked spencer Thomas and i to sign 1019b50d902SRodney W. Grimes off on copyright permission (although they didn't need to, it being pd). 1026dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier Lempel, HP, and Unisys grumbles they can't make money off the 1039b50d902SRodney W. Grimes software since a good free implementation (not the best -- 1046dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier i have more ideas!) escaped via Usenet. (Lempel's own pascal 1059b50d902SRodney W. Grimes code was apparently horribly slow.) 1066dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier i don't follow the IBM 'arc' legal bickering; my impression 1079b50d902SRodney W. Grimes is that the pc folks are making money off the archiver/wrapper 1089b50d902SRodney W. Grimes look/feel of the thing [if ms-dos can be said to have a look and feel]. 1099b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1109b50d902SRodney W. Grimes now where is telebit with the compress firmware? in a limbo 1119b50d902SRodney W. Grimes netherworld, probably, with sperry still welcoming outfits 1129b50d902SRodney W. Grimes to sign patent licenses, a common tactic to bring other small fry 1136dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier into the fold. the guy who crammed 12-bit compress into the modem 1149b50d902SRodney W. Grimes there left. also what is transpiring with 'compress' and sys 5 rel 4? 1159b50d902SRodney W. Grimes beats me, but if sperry got a hold of them on these issues, 1169b50d902SRodney W. Grimes at&t would likely re-implement another algorithm if they 1179b50d902SRodney W. Grimes thought 'compress' infringes. needful to say, i don't think 1189b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it does after the above mentioned legal conversation. 1199b50d902SRodney W. Grimes my own beliefs on whether algorithms should be patentable at all 1209b50d902SRodney W. Grimes change with the weather. if the courts finally nail down 1219b50d902SRodney W. Grimes patent protection for algorithms, academic publication in 1229b50d902SRodney W. Grimes textbooks will be somewhat at odds with the engineering world, 1239b50d902SRodney W. Grimes where the textbook codes will simply be a big tease to get 1249b50d902SRodney W. Grimes money into the patent holder coffers... 1259b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1266dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier oh, if you implement LZW from the patent, you won't get 1279b50d902SRodney W. Grimes good rates because it doesn't mention adaptive table reset, 1286dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier lack thereof being *the* serious deficiency of Thomas' first version. 1299b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1309b50d902SRodney W. Grimes now i know that patent law generally protects against independent 1319b50d902SRodney W. Grimes re-invention (like the 'xor' hash function pleasantly mentioned 1329b50d902SRodney W. Grimes in the patent [but not the paper]). 1339b50d902SRodney W. Grimes but the upshot is that if anyone ever wanted to sue us, 1349b50d902SRodney W. Grimes we're partially covered with 1359b50d902SRodney W. Grimes independently-developed twists, plus the fact that some of us work 1366dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier in a bureaucratic morass (as contractor to a public agency in my case). 1379b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1386dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier quite a mess, huh? I've wanted to tell someone this stuff 1399b50d902SRodney W. Grimes for a long time, for posterity if nothing else. 1409b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1419b50d902SRodney W. Grimesjames 1429b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 143