16dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier 29b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 39b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 49b50d902SRodney W. Grimes>From vn Fri Dec 2 18:05:27 1988 59b50d902SRodney W. GrimesSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA 69b50d902SRodney W. GrimesNewsgroups: sci.crypt 79b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 89b50d902SRodney W. Grimes# Illegitimi noncarborundum 99b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 109b50d902SRodney W. GrimesPatents are a tar pit. 119b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 129b50d902SRodney W. GrimesA good case can be made that most are just a license to sue, and nothing 139b50d902SRodney W. Grimesis illegal until a patent is upheld in court. 149b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 159b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFor example, if you receive netnews by means other than 'nntp', 169b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthese very words are being modulated by 'compress', 179b50d902SRodney W. Grimesa variation on the patented Lempel-Ziv-Welch algorithm. 189b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 199b50d902SRodney W. GrimesOriginal Ziv-Lempel is patent number 4,464,650, and the more powerful 209b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLZW method is #4,558,302. Yet despite any similarities between 'compress' 219b50d902SRodney W. Grimesand LZW (the public-domain 'compress' code was designed and given to the 229b50d902SRodney W. Grimesworld before the ink on the Welch patent was dry), no attorneys from Sperry 239b50d902SRodney W. Grimes(the assignee) have asked you to unplug your Usenet connection. 249b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 259b50d902SRodney W. GrimesWhy? I can't speak for them, but it is possible the claims are too broad, 269b50d902SRodney W. Grimesor, just as bad, not broad enough. ('compress' does things not mentioned 279b50d902SRodney W. Grimesin the Welch patent.) Maybe they realize that they can commercialize 289b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLZW better by selling hardware implementations rather than by licensing 299b50d902SRodney W. Grimessoftware. Again, the LZW software delineated in the patent is *not* 309b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe same as that of 'compress'. 319b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 329b50d902SRodney W. GrimesAt any rate, court-tested software patents are a different animal; 339b50d902SRodney W. Grimescorporate patents in a portfolio are usually traded like baseball cards 349b50d902SRodney W. Grimesto shut out small fry rather than actually be defended before 359b50d902SRodney W. Grimesnon-technical juries. Perhaps RSA will undergo this test successfully, 369b50d902SRodney W. Grimesalthough the grant to "exclude others from making, using, or selling" 379b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthe invention would then only apply to the U.S. (witness the 389b50d902SRodney W. GrimesGenentech patent of the TPA molecule in the U.S. but struck down 399b50d902SRodney W. Grimesin Great Britain as too broad.) 409b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 419b50d902SRodney W. GrimesThe concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 429b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthat one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 439b50d902SRodney W. GrimesApparently this all changed in Diamond v. Diehr (1981) when the U. S. Supreme 449b50d902SRodney W. GrimesCourt reversed itself. 459b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 469b50d902SRodney W. GrimesScholars should consult the excellent article in the Washington and Lee 479b50d902SRodney W. GrimesLaw Review (fall 1984, vol. 41, no. 4) by Anthony and Colwell for a 489b50d902SRodney W. Grimescomprehensive survey of an area which will remain murky for some time. 499b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 509b50d902SRodney W. GrimesUntil the dust clears, how you approach ideas which are patented depends 519b50d902SRodney W. Grimeson how paranoid you are of a legal onslaught. Arbitrary? Yes. But 52*14517324SEitan Adlerthe patent bar of the CCPA (Court of Customs and Patent Appeals) 539b50d902SRodney W. Grimesthanks you for any uncertainty as they, at least, stand to gain 549b50d902SRodney W. Grimesfrom any trouble. 559b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 569b50d902SRodney W. Grimes=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 579b50d902SRodney W. GrimesFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 589b50d902SRodney W. GrimesSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA (actually 'compress' patents) 599b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 609b50d902SRodney W. Grimes In article <2042@eos.UUCP> you write: 619b50d902SRodney W. Grimes >The concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 629b50d902SRodney W. Grimes >that one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 639b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 649b50d902SRodney W. GrimesA rule of thumb that has never been completely valid, as any chemical 659b50d902SRodney W. Grimesengineer can tell you. (Chemical processes were among the earliest patents, 669b50d902SRodney W. Grimesas I recall.) 679b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 689b50d902SRodney W. Grimes ah yes -- i date myself when relaying out-of-date advice from elderly 699b50d902SRodney W. Grimes attorneys who don't even specialize in patents. one other interesting 709b50d902SRodney W. Grimes class of patents include the output of optical lens design programs, 719b50d902SRodney W. Grimes which yield formulae which can then fairly directly can be molded 729b50d902SRodney W. Grimes into glass. although there are restrictions on patenting equations, 739b50d902SRodney W. Grimes the "embedded systems" seem to fly past the legal gauntlets. 749b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 756dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier anyway, I'm still learning about intellectual property law after 766dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier several conversations from a Unisys (nee sperry) lawyer re 'compress'. 779b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 789b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it's more complicated than this, but they're letting (oral 799b50d902SRodney W. Grimes communication only) software versions of 'compress' slide 809b50d902SRodney W. Grimes as far as licensing fees go. this includes 'arc', 'stuffit', 819b50d902SRodney W. Grimes and other commercial wrappers for 'compress'. yet they are 826dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier signing up licensees for hardware chips. Hewlett-Packard 836dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier supposedly has an active vlsi project, and Unisys has 846dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier board-level LZW-based tape controllers. (to build LZW into 859b50d902SRodney W. Grimes a disk controller would be strange, as you'd have to build 869b50d902SRodney W. Grimes in a filesystem too!) 879b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 889b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it's byzantine 896dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier that Unisys is in a tiff with HP regarding the patents, 909b50d902SRodney W. Grimes after discovering some sort of "compress" button on some 916dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier HP terminal product. why? well, professor Abraham Lempel jumped 929b50d902SRodney W. Grimes from being department chairman of computer science at technion in 936dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier Israel to sperry (where he got the first patent), but then to work 946dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier at Hewlett-Packard on sabbatical. the second Welch patent 959b50d902SRodney W. Grimes is only weakly derivative of the first, so they want chip 966dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier licenses and HP relented. however, everyone agrees something 976dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier like the current Unix implementation is the way to go with 986dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier software, so HP (and UCB) long ago asked spencer Thomas and i to sign 999b50d902SRodney W. Grimes off on copyright permission (although they didn't need to, it being pd). 1006dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier Lempel, HP, and Unisys grumbles they can't make money off the 1019b50d902SRodney W. Grimes software since a good free implementation (not the best -- 1026dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier i have more ideas!) escaped via Usenet. (Lempel's own pascal 1039b50d902SRodney W. Grimes code was apparently horribly slow.) 1046dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier i don't follow the IBM 'arc' legal bickering; my impression 1059b50d902SRodney W. Grimes is that the pc folks are making money off the archiver/wrapper 1069b50d902SRodney W. Grimes look/feel of the thing [if ms-dos can be said to have a look and feel]. 1079b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1089b50d902SRodney W. Grimes now where is telebit with the compress firmware? in a limbo 1099b50d902SRodney W. Grimes netherworld, probably, with sperry still welcoming outfits 1109b50d902SRodney W. Grimes to sign patent licenses, a common tactic to bring other small fry 1116dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier into the fold. the guy who crammed 12-bit compress into the modem 1129b50d902SRodney W. Grimes there left. also what is transpiring with 'compress' and sys 5 rel 4? 1139b50d902SRodney W. Grimes beats me, but if sperry got a hold of them on these issues, 1149b50d902SRodney W. Grimes at&t would likely re-implement another algorithm if they 1159b50d902SRodney W. Grimes thought 'compress' infringes. needful to say, i don't think 1169b50d902SRodney W. Grimes it does after the above mentioned legal conversation. 1179b50d902SRodney W. Grimes my own beliefs on whether algorithms should be patentable at all 1189b50d902SRodney W. Grimes change with the weather. if the courts finally nail down 1199b50d902SRodney W. Grimes patent protection for algorithms, academic publication in 1209b50d902SRodney W. Grimes textbooks will be somewhat at odds with the engineering world, 1219b50d902SRodney W. Grimes where the textbook codes will simply be a big tease to get 1229b50d902SRodney W. Grimes money into the patent holder coffers... 1239b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1246dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier oh, if you implement LZW from the patent, you won't get 1259b50d902SRodney W. Grimes good rates because it doesn't mention adaptive table reset, 1266dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier lack thereof being *the* serious deficiency of Thomas' first version. 1279b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1289b50d902SRodney W. Grimes now i know that patent law generally protects against independent 1299b50d902SRodney W. Grimes re-invention (like the 'xor' hash function pleasantly mentioned 1309b50d902SRodney W. Grimes in the patent [but not the paper]). 1319b50d902SRodney W. Grimes but the upshot is that if anyone ever wanted to sue us, 1329b50d902SRodney W. Grimes we're partially covered with 1339b50d902SRodney W. Grimes independently-developed twists, plus the fact that some of us work 1346dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier in a bureaucratic morass (as contractor to a public agency in my case). 1359b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1366dc4364cSPhilippe Charnier quite a mess, huh? I've wanted to tell someone this stuff 1379b50d902SRodney W. Grimes for a long time, for posterity if nothing else. 1389b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 1399b50d902SRodney W. Grimesjames 1409b50d902SRodney W. Grimes 141